Reply: Descent: Journeys in the Dark:: Rules:: Re: Prolonged actions and Leadership

by corbon

Hermjard wrote:

corbon wrote:

The rule on pg 5 that Concentrate requires a Prolonged order token is a requirement, not all requirements. He still has to have the ability to declare concentrate as a half-action as well as already having the prolonged action order token.

Prolonged actions are typically dictated in the text of a quest, and are performed by taking the Ready action

One last time, I repeat it: This quote proofs, that a ready action is necessary for the order "prolonged action". I have never disagreed with this fact, except, that the authors of the rules obviously forgot the possibility, that a hero starts his turn with a prolonged action order, because it was set before his turn. There is no mention of the concentrate action in it, so this quotation gives absolutely no hint, under which conditions someone can do a Concentrate.

Agreed. A Ready Action is necessary for a Prolonged Order. Concentrate is not mentioned here.

corbon wrote:

Looking Harder - read pg5 (AoD of course) again. See that whole section titled "The Ready Action (Revised)"...
Thats clue 1. It tells us that the following rules are part of a ready action.
Then clue 2. "Now, when a hero readies, he receives two different half actions, one of which must be an order half action."
... The different half actions are:... Move... Attack... Order... Concentrate
Concentrate is explicitly a half-action. Its only available when Readying, both by implication in this rules section and by default in the rest of the rules (see below).

The structure of the text in this paragraph is evidence for nothing.

I disagree, but it is irrelevant really.
You must surely agree that this section of the rules clearly says that Concentrate is a half-action?
You must surely agree that this section of the rules clearly says that a Concentrate half-action is available as part of a Ready Action?

Not only are there enough examples in the manuals, where rules are presented at places, where they don't belong to, but furthermore, here there are not only the Concentrate halfaction mentioned, but also the Move and Attack halfactions. You would not argue, that Move and Attack is only possible with a Ready action, only because mentioned here, wouldn't you? So don't to it with the Concentrate halfaction either.

You've shown yourself to be smarter than this. That is terrible logic, not at all what I am saying. (It feels like you are upset by the implied insult, and too angry to think clearly).
Move and Attack half-actions are available with other Actions because those other Actions say they are.
Concentrate is not "only" available in a Ready Action because it is mentioned here, but because it is only mentioned here and not available in any other action type.
Seriously, this is really, really basic stuff.

corbon wrote:

Think a little - a hero must declare one of 4 actions, Battle, Run, Advance, Ready, before doing anything else in step 3 of his turn (exception noted below).
Battle - attack x2
Advance - attack + move
Run - move x2
There is no possibility of concentrating in any of those. Therefore concentrate is only available in a Ready action (which the rules actually say in AoD pg5 anyway).
Now the exception. Stunned heroes don't get to declare an order. But the stun rules themselves limit what they can do. Instead, the hero may only move a number of spaces up to his speed or make one attack or place one order.

You conclude something here, not with a rule, but with the absense of a rule: it's not allowed, because it's not mentioned, although, all other rules don't forbid that.

They don't forbid "Set off Bio-weapon half-action: all monsters in the quest die" either.
Its not about what is forbidden, its about what is allowed.
A Battle action allows you to do certain things. Concentrate half-action is not one of them.
An Advance action allows you to do certain things. Concentrate half-action is not one of them.
A Run action allows you to do certain things. Concentrate half-action is not one of them.
A Ready action allows you to do certain things. Concentrate half-action is one of them.
Stunned heroes are allowed to do certain things. Concentrate half-action is not one of them.

Really, its that simple.

Regarding my argument, that the rules make only a prolonged action token necessary, to Concentrate, you do exactly the opposite, and "invent" additional rules, which are not there, only based on the placement of text.

I have invented no rules. I have simply looked at what the rules allow me to do and concluded that concentrate without declaring a Ready action is simply not one of them.

You have invented rules. You have added "only" to the necessity to have a prolonged order token to Concentrate. That "only" does not exist.

THIS I call selective interpretation of the rules. Do me please a favor: don't conclude by the meaning of word, how you interprete them, don't argue by text locations, don't argue with rules, which are not there, but only by the exact wording of the rules.

Kindly do the same. Show me where it says you can do a concentrate half-action during an Advance, Battle or Run action, or when stunned. Show me.

Is that a high horse I see you getting down from? :cool:

corbon wrote:

The rules say, when you use an order, you remove the token (return it to the players supply). Yet dodge can cause rerolls, but remain. Therefore, logically (and also literally, read it carefull), dodge is not being 'used' to have its effect. Aim, Guard and Rest are expliciting 'used' when they are removed in order to give their effect. Dodge is never actually "used". This can all be read on pgs14-15 DJitD.
You are arguing that 'using' the order is the same thing as gaining an effect from it. The rules simply disagree with you. The whole section of Dodge never uses the word "use" at all. "Use" is specifically associated with removal-for-effect on the other orders. The whole section on Prolonged Orders never uses the word "use" at all, except in a different context in the examples.

From the final FAQ, p. 10: "The overlord may not force the character to use any orders."

How do you explain this sentence in accordance with your strange interpretation of "use"? And please, don't argument again with special meanings of words, the authors never defined this way, by text placements, the absense of rules, or because you "just know it better".

With ease. It means the OL cannot use (remove) a hero's Aim order to make his charm attack Aimed.

Why are you fighting for a position that sees the rules contradicting themselves? Clearly Order tokens are removed when used. Not only do you have dodge contradicting your idea, but Prolonged actions themselves - just placing the token counts as 'using' it under your interp, since you immediately get a roll, and therefore the rules require you to immediately remove it - which makes a nonsense of the instruction to remove it at the end of your turn.

Btw, before this backround, I regard it as a little bit rude, to be asked to think hard or read better. I read and think very carefully about the rules.

I'm sorry you took it badly. I apologise for not adding the smilies to make it more obvious I was teasing you. You've shown before that you are good at reading and thinking, so I didn't think I needed to tread on eggshells.
But perhaps not so much when pissed off? :p (still teasing)